朱师傅 · 花砖厂看火师傅

《The Decorative Brick Factory: Interview with Master Zhu》

Editorial note: Q = interviewer; Zhu = Master Zhu; Cai = Master Cai (aside). In editing, I have tried to keep the original wording and cut repetition and meaningless filler. Obvious transcription errors have been restored from context, e.g. “土药/土窑” and “农药” = dragon kiln; “打水,” “看火,” “Lumu Imperial Kiln,” “rice husk,” etc.

Q: What is your surname, Master?

Zhu: Zhu. Zhu as in Zhu De.

Q: What year were you born?

Zhu: 1953, November 25. By the traditional count I’m 74 now.

Q: How many years have you been doing this?

Zhu: By the end of this year, I’ll have been firing this kiln for 47 years. I started firing this earthen kiln at 27.

Q: How did you get into this line of work?

Zhu: In our village in Suzhou, in the brigade. We called it a brigade back then, not like now, Taoyao Village. Our village was called Huani Village, now it belongs to Huali Village. In 1979, the brigade was short one person. My father was also a fire-watcher at the kiln factory. Later the brigade secretary said, let my eldest son go fire the kiln. So I learned from my father. Back then we earned work points in the brigade.

Q: Your father did this too?

Zhu: Yes, my father did this too. I learned from him.

Q: Besides your father and you, does anyone else in the family do fire-watching?

Zhu: No. Fire-watching isn’t easy. I don’t think anyone else in the brigade does it.

Q: Did your father want you to do this?

Zhu: In those days, what do you mean want or not want? What ideals did we have? We had no ideals.

Q: What happened later?

Zhu: I fired until the ’80s. Then in ’88 business was bad, and the big kilns stopped firing too. All the earthen kilns were left abandoned there. In ’91, one of our village brigade secretaries was transferred elsewhere, and a new secretary came. In ’91 we started firing again, and I contracted it myself. Reform and opening up—in ’83 the state allocated land. The brigade said, whoever wants to fire, pay 3,300 yuan; three earthen kilns for 10,000 yuan. Later three of us signed up. One kiln was over 3,000; I had three kilns, so the secretary said three kilns for 10,000 yuan. In ’91 I contracted it myself, bought the skins myself, sold them myself. Business wasn’t good then. A day’s work was just a few yuan, 3 yuan.

Q: And you kept firing after that?

Zhu: I fired until ’96 in our brigade. In ’96 they were building the highway, and it got in the way, so the three earthen kilns were demolished. After they were demolished, I went to Changshu and rented someone else’s kiln to fire.

Q: What year did you go to Changshu?

Zhu: In 2003 I went to Changshu and fired until ’14. That earthen kiln in Changshu—Changshu City tore them all down. They weren’t allowed to fire anymore, because of pollution. That kiln put out black smoke, and the state considered it pollution. Changzhou launched a campaign; there were dozens of kilns. There were many in that area then, dozens, and they pulled them all down. In the winter of ’14, right around the New Year, we stopped firing and came back.

Q: What did you do after coming back?

Zhu: I came back in ’14 and didn’t fire into ’15. In Xinhang Town, Guangde, Anhui, there was a Peng Sai, a Sheng Zhonghai, and a Boss Huang. They had six kilns. Their sons had six kilns, but later no one fired them, and no one fired the replacement ones. We Suzhou people found out and came to ask. The one from Guangdong came to Xinhang to do it. I came over in November ’15, October 12, to Xinhang, Guangde. We Suzhou people did the firing. It wasn’t that there were originally six kilns—the kilns were yours, Anhui’s, and the locals compensated. The mountain was rented by us Suzhou people; renting meant demolition. You rent this earthen kiln to me.

Q: How long did you fire there?

Zhu: That year three kilns came. One earthen kiln fired two kiln loads; one earthen kiln fired one kiln load. In ’16, four bosses from Suzhou all came and rented four kilns, and two kilns were fired by Boss Huang himself. We fired until ’17. In ’16, the whole year, the two kilns fired until a little past April. That year the state banned a lot of earthen kilns—pollution, no firing allowed. In ’17, before the end of the year, a little past April, not quite May, it was settled—no firing allowed. So later I went back.

Q: After you went back, where did you go?

Zhu: After I went back, it just so happened that a boss from our Taiping Township had taken over six kilns at Hongqi Bridge, Hongqi Town, in Lu’an. He took them over in ’08. I went to Lu’an in ’18. In ’17 I went to fire several times; in ’18 the whole year, in ’19 the whole year—two years, I fire-watched for two years. I came back in 2020 and didn’t go. When I came back in 2020, my younger brother’s health was bad, so I stayed home to keep him company. After keeping him company, later I came to this place.

Q: What year did you come to Jing County?

Zhu: 2021, June, I came to Jing County. At that time their previous master—Boss Wang hired a master—couldn’t fire this earthen kiln well; he only fired yellow batches. Later Boss Wang learned about me. Xiaogou knew me in Xinhang Town. I was at home all along. There were people here; this master was watching, so he didn’t call me. Later, in June 2021, I came to this place. Up to now I’ve been here five and a half years.

Q: Did you put up the place you live after you came?

Zhu: I put it up after I came. A shipping container, and that was built out. It was too small. I said I’m one person, I’ll put it up here by myself. I brought a bed over—how was I supposed to cook and eat? Later they built a little extension for me. That’s how I got by. By the end of this year, I’ll have been here five and a half years.

Q: How often do you go home?

Zhu: I basically can’t go home. Once or twice a year, one or two trips, just at New Year. In between, at most one trip. Last year I went back twice, because I went to my hometown to get medicine, blood pressure medicine. This year I went back once, also for medicine. I’ll go back at New Year.

Q: They all say fire-watching is the most important job. If the master is gone, the kiln can’t be started.

Zhu: That’s exactly the way it is. This earthen kiln—when they’ve loaded it and want to light it, I’m the one who manages it. From lighting to the final firing, I handle it all myself. Including water quenching after firing—I do the quenching too.

Q: You also handle the water quenching?

Zhu: Me too. They say, you watch the fire—well, fire-watching includes water quenching. Last year I told them, you do the water quenching, I won’t do it. They insisted I do it, so I still do it.

Q: Is there a knack to water quenching?

Zhu: Of course there’s a knack. If you quench badly, the top and bottom get damaged. It damages the level surface. After it’s made, if you quench it, the top is useless and has to be thrown away.

Q: How do you quench?

Zhu: An earthen kiln—this round one—has two secondary chimneys on the sides and a big chimney at the back. At the front, where you fire, there’s an iron pipe. We put it high on the secondary chimney, at the back, connect a hose, and let it down. You quench, but I’ve never calculated how much water to put in. Once you understand it, you know. If that much water goes down, the kiln is fine, no damage. How much water—at the end, there are two gauges below. Down below it’s a little over 100, 120, 100 degrees. When quenching, the gauge is steady. Inside this earthen kiln it’s all blazing fire. In the end you quench until the fire goes out and the water is gone. The temperature slowly drops to around 100 degrees; up top it’s a little over 200. Then it’s about right, more or less.

Q: What about watching the fire? They say you go look once in the morning and once in the evening?

Zhu: I go look every morning.

Q: They say even after following for three years you can’t learn it. How is that?

Zhu: It depends on your own experience. You have to watch the fire in the kiln and also manage the smoke in the kiln. Fire and smoke. When a kiln is smoking, I look at the fire burning in the kiln chamber. If it’s about right and not moving much, then it’s fine. I have to watch the smoke above. If the smoke turns yellow, that means I need to open it up a bit up top. The chimney has bricks set in it, nine bricks laid flat. Originally a chimney is this big, this wide. As it fires slowly, I have to press bricks down. Make the chimney smaller, make the flue smaller.

Q: What does “closing it down” mean?

Zhu: Closing it down means pressing bricks. We call it “closing down by pressing bricks.” You make the opening smaller with bricks, leaving a gap this big. There are three chimneys. At a certain point, the bricks have to be pressed out little by little, and then two long gaps like this are left.

Q: Do you do this too? Or do you have them do it?

Zhu: I do it. I do it. They don’t understand; they can’t do it. You close it down little by little, and it gradually gets smaller.

Q: What about the temperature?

Zhu: The temperature comes up slowly. When I close it down, it rises.

Q: You started at 27. It must not have been easy to learn this.

Zhu: I learned from my father. He’d tell me how to do this and that. Later, when I did one myself, I also summed up experience on how to do it well.

Q: How many years did it take before you could do it?

Zhu: I started then. I learned by the ’90s, five or six years. Five or six years on my own. Later my father stopped firing. He couldn’t keep up with the brigade work, so he quit and stopped managing me. Sometimes he’d come by to see me and talk to me.

Q: How do you think your skill compares with your father’s?

Zhu: Even now, my father’s skill was good. Later I also fired a few yellow batches myself. I watched them, and I didn’t ruin them.

Q: What is a yellow batch?

Zhu: A yellow batch in the end—originally it should be gray. After water quenching inside the kiln, it’s gray. But after quenching and opening, it’s yellow.

Q: Did you fire yellow batches during your five or six years as an apprentice, or after?

Zhu: After. I fired several.

Q: How does that happen?

Zhu: It’s whether you’ve got it under control. The key is also the kiln firer, the fire tender. Like now, they have fire tenders. A fire tender can’t doze off for several tens of minutes. If you doze off for several tens of minutes and let the main fire go down, the fire will slump, and then it turns yellow.

Q: Did you fire dragon kilns in Suzhou before?

Zhu: Where we were in Suzhou, we fired dragon kilns, with rice husks. The one here now that fires white—this one uses wood. We used to fire with rice-husk ash. Rice husk is the shell of rice. We locally call it kang; you call it rice husk. Dragon kilns were terribly busy and tiring.

Q: If a firing fails, whose responsibility is it?

Zhu: There are failures. Sometimes someone dozes off. The kiln firer, the fire tender, dozes off there. That was also my own kiln; I watched it myself. I was firing in Guangde; in Xinhang I fired one yellow batch because they dozed off. Later they checked the surveillance, but couldn’t find it. That one already had surveillance. I estimate—I didn’t have time, and I don’t know how to check surveillance—they didn’t find it. Anyway, one yellow batch was fired, and the loss was a bit big. It was the end of ’16, the end of ’16, I fired one yellow batch in Xinhang.

Q: With you, mistakes are rare. Normally, if the kiln worker doesn’t doze off or fall asleep, there won’t be any big problem, right?

Zhu: Right. They rely on outside temperature readings, but that’s not enough. You have to watch the fire, the smoke, and what’s inside the kiln. When it’s fired to a certain point, when the kiln is thoroughly fired and ripe, there are several holes; you need to bank the fire and watch it.

Q: How long does one banked fire last?

Zhu: No more than a few minutes. In a few minutes you can tell whether the kiln is good or not. If the kiln has fired to that point, another three days or so. I figure on the third day, the last day, I go look at the tail—whether it’s good or not, I know. Baking the kiln, you look twice a day; at this time you have to check the amount. You have to look twice a day. When it’s about right at the end, I can basically tell from inside the kiln that it’s good, and the bottom is fired through too.

Q: Do you look from below or above?

Zhu: I look from above, and the firing below—both top and bottom. Most people can’t sum up this experience. I’ve fired for many years, too many years.

Q: Have you taken on apprentices?

Zhu: No.

Q: Why not? This craft.

Zhu: Let me tell you now, how do you take on an apprentice? Who’s willing to learn this? There’s no money in it. You take an apprentice and there’s no money. When I came here, there was a kiln worker, now 63, and he’s a careful worker. I said I’ll teach you, teach you till you can do it. He said I don’t want to learn. If I learn, the boss won’t have them watch. Now it’s all bosses. You need the boss to put in a word and give the order. You tell Old Zhou, teach him this, and later when you can’t do it, I’ll have him watch. Then he’d be willing to learn. If I tell him to learn, he won’t; only if the boss tells him to learn will he learn. If the boss doesn’t take you and doesn’t open his mouth, he won’t learn. With the boss, you agree too—you learn it. Is this something you can learn just because you want to? It’s so hard. They all say it takes years to learn. That man, a little over 60, if he wanted to learn, I’d teach him. He already knew how to fire kilns, understood firing. He wouldn’t learn. He said, if I learn, no one will ask me to do this, so why should I learn?

Q: Master Cai is quite envious of you.

Zhu: Envious? At this point I’ve seen through it all. There’s nothing much to a person. Since I understand it, I don’t have to worry much.

Q: They say you go twice a day, sometimes once every two or three days, and still make more a month than they do. Are you paid monthly or yearly?

Zhu: 5,500 yuan per kiln. From when they finish loading and light it, I watch it for them—5,500.

Q: 5,500 per kiln? How many days does one usually fire?

Zhu: 27 or 28 days. Some fire well in 26.

Q: At first I thought you only spend a few minutes a day and get paid pretty well. Later they said, without a master like you, hundreds of thousands of yuan worth of goods might not be safe.

Zhu: Without firing, how good would what they produce now be? Without this skill you can’t fire it well, can’t get it right. You don’t understand this.

Q: So it’s not a fixed salary either?

Zhu: How would I have a fixed salary? They fire when they load a kiln. If they load and fire, I watch it and get paid.

Q: Is there a difference between slow and busy seasons?

Zhu: They fire all year round.

Q: About how much a year? Do they buy social insurance for you?

Zhu: No. I’m 74. Age, age.

Q: Does your income increase each year?

Zhu: I’ll tell you, it increased from last year to this year. Originally I only made 120,000 a year, and I still had to work with Boss Huang. Originally 120,000 a year, 10,000 a month. Then last year, two bosses came. Two kilns were rented by Zhejiang people, and two kilns were rented by Boss Wang from Xinfang. He came looking. I said, you two bosses come, I won’t watch, I’m going back, I won’t rent, I don’t want to do it. I said I won’t rent. Later this year—last year, I told you—I said, if you want me to stay here, I won’t do 120,000 a year with you; 6,000 a month, and I’ll watch it for you. So that’s how they settled it. Starting last year, from last year they fired 28 kilns in total, 28 kilns. Last year was a bit more, 128,000, 6,848? Last year was just under 170,000. This year they won’t fire that many kilns. This year it’ll be 26 kilns.

Q: Why?

Zhu: Last year had 384 days; this year only 365. This year their business is bad. Some of them seem to have other things to do, and they’re not rushing. Are we rushing? It’s not that we’re rushing—it’s the environmental protection thing. Not environmental protection—the bosses have loosened up, business is bad. If they fire fast, they can’t sell it. So firing slower is fine; they’re not pushing so hard. I figure this year another 26 kilns, 4 kilns.

Q: Your work doesn’t seem to require much physical strength?

Zhu: The physical part is just that it’s hot. When I don’t have someone else do it, I have to make the door. After loading, you have to make the door well, and adjust the top and bottom. There are pieces up there, called “heaven and earth,” that you set on top. After they finish loading, I have to go do it well, leave an hour to do it. Make it smaller—originally a pit is big, you stack the bricks and make it smaller, stack bricks to make it small.

Q: This doesn’t seem to give you occupational diseases like other jobs?

Zhu: The parts that move often—joint disease. Like us, because now some smoke, black smoke—you can’t breathe it. When you come into contact with black smoke, if you smell it, you choke. There are occupational diseases. There are. The smoke has black smoke in it; if you smell it, you’ll choke. At our age it’s a bit better. When you’re up there, usually you watch the fire for a few minutes, then do that for an hour. You do it for an hour, top and bottom—the bottom takes over an hour. Fire it for a week, and up top you have to slowly add a little brick. After firing for half a month, the door I make now has to be made smaller. Then it’s incredibly hot. Then you have to work mud, and after it’s done, seal it with mud, seal it tight, seal it with yellow mud, all sealed. Incredibly hot.

Q: Is summer hard?

Zhu: Summer is hard, incredibly hot. Some skin on my body is burned. When they fire, what’s the temperature? At least five or six hundred degrees. Terribly hot. Sometimes I have to wrap up in thick clothes, put on thick clothes, gear up, and it’s still unbearably hot.

Q: Anything to do today?

Zhu: Not today. I’ve got the door done one by one, that kiln is sealed. Nothing today.

Q: In the whole kiln-firing side, everyone envies you and thinks your job is the best. Have you thought of doing anything else? Being the boss at this kiln factory?

Zhu: I don’t want to. If I did, when ’14 ended, I still wanted to be a boss myself. I could have rented from them and kept firing. I don’t want to be a boss, don’t want to do it. Let me tell you, being a boss is hard. Being a boss is hard. With this, the more kilns you fire, the more you earn, a little more or a little less. But it’s not like them—their goods can’t sell. We do this black brick business, and there’s a lot of credit. You take this batch of goods, you owe people. We call it lots of debt, very heavy debt. You give the goods to people, not cash first, not buying with cash—you deliver first. They take the goods, sell them, and don’t give you the money. Some people. I used to run around Suzhou myself, go there. I went through it.

Q: Is this private business or with...?

Zhu: They’re private too. As a salesperson, running around outside, one hand takes money, one hand gives goods. There are customers. If some construction site needs some product, they come looking for you. If you don’t have that customer, he has a contractor, a regular, one, and then he comes to me to get it. Then he takes some money. If you want my goods, give me the money right away, and I won’t go to get it. Because back then in Suzhou there was a lot. If you don’t buy, someone else sells. I fired until ’14 and then stopped. Stopped, didn’t do it. If you keep doing it, the money is hard to handle.

Q: Are there many people in your hometown who know this craft?

Zhu: There are quite a few who know this technique. There used to be many. Now some have passed away, the older generation has passed away. At my age, I’m the youngest. In my hometown, there are none left.

Q: So did they pass the skill down? To young people?

Zhu: Pass it down now? Are you willing to let your own child do it? Your own child—your father let you, passed it to you. If you don’t pass it down, and it can’t be passed down, who do you pass it to? For my son to come here, with two people watching this kiln—impossible. He’s not willing. He’s gone back home now. Originally, if my son didn’t do it, I’d stay home. I’d take my grandson to school and pick him up. Now that I’ve come out, my son isn’t well off, and no one picks up the child. So now my son stays home to pick up the child. My older granddaughter is 21, in Nanjing, already studying in Nanjing. The younger grandson is 14, still back home, in Suzhou High-Speed Rail New Town.

Q: With your skill, don’t you feel it’s a pity not to pass it to your son?

Zhu: Pass it to my son? If you can’t watch it well, the boss won’t want you. But after a few years, couldn’t he learn? After a few years, if you don’t come learn, someone else will. Take Master Cai here—I wanted to teach him, but he wouldn’t learn.

Q: Why is Master Cai called Master Cai? I’d like my daughter to come learn from you. Everyone says your skill is good.

Zhu: When will you be up there? Making it smaller and setting bricks—generally when? They have to get this kiln ready. Isn’t there a kiln being loaded now? After it’s loaded, after it’s loaded, will you do it tomorrow? He says it takes three days to load. Not today, tomorrow, the day after, the day after that—the day after that you do it. Today is the 25th, right? When you do it, it hasn’t fired yet, right? Not fired. You do it first, then after they fire for a while, after it’s done and set, top and bottom set, then they hang it, then after they light it, you go up based on the smoke and see whether it needs to be made smaller. When you’ve done it and they light it, it’s fine. Anyway, I’ve done it, you fire, firing for a week is fine. After a week, then see whether it needs to be made smaller. After a week, I have bricks up there. There are several—this big, one by one I set. There are 5 bricks. I set them. Today I set one, tomorrow I put one. You do it slowly. Oh, it takes 4 days. These 5 bricks up top, I put them over 4 days. Four days to put them, 5 bricks over 4 days. If they close it all at once, it’s sealed tight, right? The moisture can’t go up; it goes slowly. That’s the principle. This is really a technical job. Two moistures burn together, run together, run and run until finally it slowly dries. When the moisture above dries a little, I press another brick.

Q: This should be called a craft, not just a job. Master leads master, old master. Kiln master—those who fire wood are called kiln masters, or kiln workers?

Zhu: Kiln firers we call fire masters.

Q: Anything else?

Zhu: There are also the ones who load the carts—called cart-loading kiln workers. Unloading the kiln is called unloading. We say doing small labor at unloading; unloading is small labor. The fire tender is also a master. You are the big master. Fire tending also takes skill. Some can fire, some can’t. There’s skill in this too. But Master Cai says fire tending, he says there’s no skill. No skill? In the last few days, when it comes to the final ripening stage, you have to know how to fire. If you know how, it’s fast; if you don’t, it’s slow. So some of this can’t be explained clearly.

Q: Do you mean banked firing or knowing how to fire?

Zhu: Banking is part of firing. Banking this—there’s no not knowing how. Knowing how to fire: some people understand. Master Cai understands; when the time comes, he knows how to fire well. Some people can fire too, but their fire isn’t strong enough. That’s the idea.

Q: Listening to you, I feel it would be a pity if this isn’t passed down.

Zhu: Passed down? Who would I pass it to?

Q: Take an apprentice. There must be people here willing to learn, right? Will there be no kilns left in the future?

Zhu: I don’t know yet. There will still be kilns. Machines—this work can’t be done by machines. Watching the fire: you can’t do it without people. Those who understand and those who don’t—if you don’t understand, you can’t fire the kiln well. Same with water quenching. If you don’t watch the firing well, the lower part will be yellow in several layers. If you don’t watch it well, several layers will be yellow. The moisture below has to be driven out.

Q: Your grandson goes to school in Suzhou?

Zhu: My grandson goes to school in Suzhou, near Suzhou North Station.

Q: You only go there for a short time each day. What do you do here most of the time?

Zhu: Of course it’s lonely. Here I smoke cigarettes, watch TV, look at my phone. That’s what I do.

Q: Do you use your phone?

Zhu: I just watch Douyin. I don’t know how to post or do anything. I watch Douyin. I can’t post; I can’t even send messages.

Q: Do you do square dancing?

Zhu: I don’t go. I’m alone, I don’t go. I never have. I haven’t gotten that close to the villagers. I don’t go, don’t chat with them, don’t go sing. On the phone, they call, sing something, sing other people’s qiqi. Go to someone’s house to play, drop by? Do you go often? It troubles people. I just stay here by myself. When there’s no food, I ride the electric bike out to buy some and cook it myself.

Q: Is it far to buy groceries?

Zhu: I go to Chengxi, to Chengxi Town.

Q: How often do you call home?

Zhu: Not every day. If something comes up, my old lady calls me.

Q: How long do you plan to keep working?

Zhu: I’m thinking of quitting at the end of this year and going home. My daughter doesn’t want me to; she tells me not to go out to work. I have a son and a daughter. They feel for me. He says you’ve worked your whole life; it’s about time to stop. You can’t earn all the money there is.

Q: Are you trying to make some money for your children now, or for yourselves?

Zhu: I’m making money for my children and grandchildren. Whatever I don’t spend is theirs.

Q: Do you dare spend it?

Zhu: I can’t spend it. How would I spend it? Here there’s nowhere to spend money. I just buy a little food, nothing else.

Q: How’s your health?

Zhu: Just a bit of high blood pressure, otherwise fine. I’m 74. Many people my age, who I played with as a kid, have died. They’ve passed away—about my age, one year older, one year younger, all gone. I tell myself my mindset is good, so my health is okay. In Jing County, many people live long, many to 90. Your place has good air. Here in Jing County, quite a few old people live to 90. In Suzhou, where I’m from, the living standard is a bit higher, but there are more people after all.

Q: Master, sorry to trouble you. Do you need to go watch the fire tonight? He wants to film it.

Zhu: I’ll probably go a little after 7, around 7:30 when it’s dark. If I’m still here, I’ll go take a look. If you haven’t left, we’ll go film it; if I’ve gone, then... In the daytime, you can’t see the fire in the smoke hole; you can’t film the fire.

Q: Master, sorry, we’ll take about an hour. Can I give you 50 yuan? I’ll scan your code.

Zhu: There’s no money on my phone. No need. It’s fine, no problem. I’m just passing time anyway. No need.

Q: After you recorded there, did reporters come interview you? Did they film? Do you have anything?

Zhu: It seems like in Xinhang, at Huang Daocheng’s place—I was at that six-kiln place in Xinhang. In ’16, they came with several cameras and looked around. They also filmed this, they filmed it.

Q: Do you know this is intangible cultural heritage? Is the decorative brick they make intangible cultural heritage?

Zhu: Intangible cultural heritage—yes, it is. Our technique belongs to intangible cultural heritage. There aren’t many people left. In Suzhou, there’s hardly anyone. Not many people understand it? Suzhou has no earthen kilns left; only two places have earthen kilns, and this is one. Our old Lumu Imperial Kiln—back in the old society, Emperor Qianlong had them start firing this earthen kiln. Later they fired these golden bricks and sold them to the Forbidden City in Beijing.

Q: Golden bricks first started in Suzhou.

Zhu: Yes, Suzhou, it started at Lumu Imperial Kiln. Back then they fired them and sold them to Beijing. Emperor Qianlong started it. I don’t know how many years, Qing Dynasty. That’s when they started firing these golden bricks. Some of the large golden bricks were sold and installed in the Forbidden City in Beijing. Zhejiang also had a kiln, in Yuyao, Zhejiang. That was ancient times. Later, why was Suzhou designated and Yuyao not? Yuyao—the golden brick was called Yu-something, I’m not clear. Anyway, Lumu Imperial Kiln—we call it Lumu Imperial Kiln. I’ll write you a note. The golden bricks—the designation was conferred by the emperor, conferring it on our Suzhou Lumu Imperial Kiln.

Q: Things still needed for the Forbidden City in Beijing now?

Zhu: This year they plan it; next year they’ll renovate. What product—whether five-cornered, four-cornered, or 60—they decide, and then everyone goes to Lumu Imperial Kiln. The boss goes to place the order: I need it by such-and-such month next year; you make it and fire it. That’s how it’s done.

Q: Aren’t you switching to electric kilns now? Do you think electric kilns can fire this?

Zhu: Electric kilns won’t work. Some use natural gas-fired electric kilns, natural gas, gas furnaces. Natural gas doesn’t fire well; the quality from natural gas firing—it can’t produce this quality. Only a small kiln can fire it properly. A kiln like this definitely can’t. This is 8 centimeters thick. You think it’s a thick brick; if the piece is thick, it can’t be fired. If it’s thick, it won’t fire through; there’s no firepower inside.

Q: It would be a pity for this to be passed down like this.

Zhu: Later, you let the masters you work with—some old masters have all gone, all gone. Like me, I learned in the brigade back then. Ma Dongli—in the ’80s, the older generation who fired all died. We followed the brigade’s firers, the old generation in the brigade. I started firing with them at 27; some were old men. I think you shouldn’t look for that one—if you want to pass on the craft, you shouldn’t look for Master Cai. Master Cai is over 60. You should find someone in their 20s.

Q: In their 20s?

Zhu: In their 20s, let me tell you, some of you don’t know how to fire this kiln; you can’t be sure of the fire. He still understands a little; he has to understand. If he can’t be sure of the fire, and he has to fire a kiln, when it’s fired well, when to fire what. If he’s fired a kiln before, you learn fast and learn well. Even if you’re in your twenties, if you have him watch and follow me every day, he’ll understand. Because he doesn’t understand when this kiln—after a week it can be fired a bit bigger, after a few more days a bit bigger. Someone who doesn’t know how to fire doesn’t understand. Their whole village knows how to fire. People their age all know how to fire. They fire a kiln, not this kind of earthen kiln. He says he fired dragon kilns, where they fire vats and basins. He used to fire big vats and small vats, vats. They fire that kind. Why are they here? The white ones are different from what we fire; white isn’t the same. So they say banked firing, banked firing—firing is banked firing. Sometimes, some people can’t work well. If you’re hot, fire a little slower, and it takes longer—what should take 5 days takes 6. The total amount is about the same; fire it up faster this way. I add a furnace of firewood, burn for 20 minutes, and it slows down. Some people say after fifteen or sixteen minutes they have to add again. So workers are different.

Q: Then let’s go look at the other processes and film the kiln loading.

Zhu: Okay.

Q: Master, do you have WeChat? Can I add you?

Zhu: I have WeChat, but I don’t know how to add people.

Q: I’ll do it. My surname is also Zhu.

Zhu: Your surname is Zhu too? We’re from the same ancestors.

Q: My family is from Huangtian in Jing County. We’re connected to Zhu Xi of the Song Dynasty. One branch went to Fujian, one branch came to Jing County.

Zhu: How come we don’t know? You don’t know. Where this came from, I’m not clear either.

Q: This is your WeChat?

Zhu: Yes, my surname is Zhu. I have another matter.

Q: Go ahead.

Zhu: Today, at that—I went to that kiln factory in Guangde. In ’16 or ’17 I paid money and fired a few kilns—two kilns. I paid 30,000 yuan and fired two kilns. Later the state wouldn’t allow firing anymore. That money—the boss won’t return it.

Q: Which boss?

Zhu: It’s Tongshan, Tongshan’s. That place is called Fangshe. He won’t—that earthen kiln, I rented it from them.

Q: He won’t refund your rent, right?

Zhu: Refund my rent—then refund me up to April ’17, and to the end of the year. You still owe us over a hundred thousand yuan. He won’t refund it. I went to bother him several times, but it didn’t work. At that time, Tongshan is over in Guangde, right? Guangde. There are many people who default there. He doesn’t call it defaulting; he calls it refunding rent, the rent. The state wouldn’t let him collect, so he didn’t collect, but he won’t refund the rent either. Later—now the state has legal aid, right? The other day I clicked one, one place, and somehow got a contact. They’re one person; I can’t figure it out. They do legal aid, legal aid, whether it’s real or not, I don’t dare do it. He wants me to pay 200 yuan first. If you want me to pay first, I won’t.

Q: Altogether, how much do you want to get back now?

Zhu: Get back 30,000 yuan, right? 30,000 yuan. You know I want to charge him interest. My niece—I should call her my sister’s daughter, my niece—my older sister’s child, she studied law. I’ll ask her, ask her, and ask whether there’s a chance to get this back. It should be possible. We paid the money, it wasn’t short. This loss should be borne by you. My cousin used to work at Jingchuan Law Firm in Jing County; she was at a law firm in Jing County. We went to Guangdong, that legal thing. But you have to consider, for 30,000 yuan, for example, if you sue, how much you pay the lawyer. Then in between, he takes 5 percent—five yuan per hundred. On 120,000 that’s 6,000. My niece has a lawyer’s license. I’ll ask her, as much as possible, just to see if this lawsuit can be fought. If it means dragging on for a long time and you have to keep running to court, that’s not good.

Q: I wouldn’t recommend it. I think it might be a scam.

Zhu: I think so too, so I didn’t pay. He wants me to pay 200 yuan. Don’t pay first. He called again today. Whether he’s a lawyer, whether it can win, I can’t tell.

Q: Better not do it for now. Where did you get this?

Zhu: I got it from someone online. I liked something that day, and then it popped up.

Q: Don’t do it for now. Let me ask around, then have my daughter send you a message and tell you, okay?

Zhu: Okay.

Q: If my cousin wants to add your WeChat, I’ll push her to you. That’s her—she’s studying in Beijing now, doing a master’s, studying law. Anyway, I’ll ask. If she can help, let her help. If there are fees involved, then it depends on whether you can get the money back. If you can’t, then...

Zhu: There’s no other tax. I paid him, but there’s no tax receipt, no receipt. No receipt. We have four bosses from Suzhou, in ’17—there are witnesses, right? There are witnesses. The extra money paid can’t be denied. The money we paid—that year, ’17, in April—there’s a deposit slip; it should be traceable.

Q: What I mean is, economically, it’s not just whether you can get the money back. After you get it back, how much time and energy will you spend suing him, plus lawyer fees in between, and how much you actually end up with—that’s what makes it worth suing or not.

Zhu: Whatever I can get, I’ll take. If I get this much, that’s it. Whatever I get.

Q: You’re still there? Okay, I’ll help you ask, and I’ll look into this. But I don’t really recommend it, because online you really don’t know.

Zhu: I don’t dare do it online. I’m afraid he’ll cheat me out of money.

Q: I’ll ask my cousin. She’s anyway...

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